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or from Quebec water in the Ottawa River, or by virtue of Quebec water rights in the Ottawa River, for use in the Commission's Eastern On- tario System. then the rate payable under this Agreement during any such time shall be such higher rate; the Power Company and Transmis- sion Company acknowledge that the CJtnmision has communicated to them tho terms of the Commission's contracts with:--" _ _ "What's this mean?" he asked. "It's in all the agreements. and it means that it at. any time before 1970 we have tn make a deal to de- velop the Ottawa River-with the people on the Quebec side. as was the case in the Chats Falls con- traet--wp will have to pay possibly '25 per horsepower for any neces- ury additions to our power supply. And if that happens. the price auto- matically rises in all the contracts." How, he asked. in the fare of this I'f,',r'igillll; could the present Art- " Chairman of Hydro sit. in his seat in the House and justify his argument that under the new con- tracts the Province. was being saved - 892.000,0tt0. Not until the real story of the mntrarts was eta Based. he sold. would the people now whether that amount would be saved or lost. an. "tttrome-arm" 'rttrtien. "We come now to the second question. It the Government had "id before the election that we have got to make a compromise with these power companies. we are threatened with a power shortage. the load has gone up and we have get to hive more power. Hydro would have been out of politics today. Mr. Macaulay said he bellow-d; that Ron. w. L. Houck was since": when he wont to his electors on a tterteNintertt power program. g "So what my honorable friends aay. in alleging that they have mado a saving In thr Beauharnois con- tracts. ls false by $15,000.000 alone and I defy any one in the House to gave where I am wrong," said Mr acaulay. "Instead of that. Premier Hep- burn chose to tth to tho prople on I policy of repudiation and rattrrlltt- tion, although his mind was made up on a different rourse." Bellows Ramett Slim-n. Mr. Macaulay then charged direct- l ty that the Premier had made an "agreement with Bunharnots he? tore the eleethm." . For a long time, said Mr. Ma- caulay. Mr. Hepburn had been get- ting away with "strong-arm" tae- ties and methods. but tho time to call a halt had arrived. In dealing with ttttif-billion-dollar utilities like Hydro there had to be candor and "political honesty." "Until these agreements were tabled in the Legislature." he said. "nobody knew these clauses existed regarding the possible rise of price tn all the contracts it the Commis- sion contracted for power at a higher rate than $12.50." 'Some day," Mr. Houck shot bark, 'Tlt table in the House an auditor's autumn! to that effect. The audi- tor is working on it now." "That's beside the point." said Mr. Macaulay. "I'm a friend of the Prime Minister's. too. But I can- not condone the methods-thr dam- mble methods that have brought the Hydro in this Province to its present puss. I mn't let friendship interfere with the situation as we find it today. I'm going to hew right to the line and let the chips tall where they may. Turning on Mr. Houck, he said: "You knew, Mr. Minister- you must have 'tttown-and as long as you tive you ought to regret the canard you spread that your actions saved the Province 892,000,00tt." "But will the auditor certify that the power you are going to buy from Quebec over the next forty years won't cost more than $12.50 per horsepower? " you can get him to sign such a statement. then I'll accept it." "Chub political talk." Marked Mr Houck. "He's a friend of yours." Cannot Condom Methods. Mr. Macaulay roterrod to Mr. Rorhurk's resignation from the Government. and to his having been "droppod" from the Hydro Com- mission. "What'k the evidence? Name added Mr. Hephurn. "There was the rvidener that there was an agreement." continued Mr. Macauiay. " have thr, facts to Show that the Hydro policy was changed before the last election. I don't say more was an agreoment In black and white. But I do say tttttt the Promier ohangod his mind on the hark-to-Niagnra policy and changed the policy before the elec- tion." -"It he had stayed on," said he. "he would have had to accept the Boauharnols rontract." "There were no negotiations car- ried on until after Dr. Hogg (Dr. Thomas Hogs. Chairman of the H.vdro-Eleetrle Commission) was appointed after the election." de- dared Premier Hepburn. "Will you accept my word there were no negotiations with Beauharnois be- tore the election l'" "I am bound to accept the state- ment under parliamentary rules," Mr. Macaulay replied; "hut all the evidvncn points to It." - 7 _ Ho ehartysd further that Premier Hepburn refuced to rowal tho pnl. iey hocauso Mr. .MeQuesten "wouldn't Approve of such a policy hefnro the nlortinn" Refers to Roebuck. "Mr. Roebuck resigned volun- tarily from the Commission," said Mr. Hepburn. "He was offered I chance to continue, hut refused." "He would have had to agree to the Boauharnois contract." said Mr. Macaulay. "in his speech the other day. he said that he resigned because of that." Mr. Roebuck rose slowly to his feet. paused dramatically. and then said: "There was no approach. di- rectly or indirectly. to me regard- ing a new Beauharnois contract. As a matter of fact. the House, I think. is entitled to some statement from me concerning my position. I had disagreed with the Government on a matter of outstanding policy. as my letter of resignation to the Prime Minister indicates. I felt it my duty to resign from the Hydro Commission, too, notwithstanding the wrench. I had no proof of it then. and I have no proof now. hut I knew at that time that a Beau- harnois contract was in prospect." "Let the member for Bollwonds (Mr. Roebuck! speak for himself." cracked the Premier. Know One In Promo". "Then the honorahlk memhor knew more than I did," Mr. Hep- burn expostulatrd. a "How did you know?" Major James Clark tLib. Windsor-Sand. wleht. demanded of Mr. Roebuck. "What proof have you?" "I took the courso I did with this motives in mind." said Mr. Roebuck. "I had no intention of becoming in- volvod in any way in tho change of poliry then in prospect." "That's most unfair." cracked Mr. Hophurn. "What ynu'ro saying are mean, eontrmptihle insinuations that you can't hark with proof." "I can hark It up this fir." smiled Mr. Rnohuck. "Subsequent ovents haw proved that I was right." Sutton" Mmttt Rgtn Proof. Mr. Maraulay reiterated his claim that tho Premier had got rid of Mr. Rneburk hpcause hr knew that the former Attorney-General and Hydro Commissioner would not go for a new Beauharnois contract. "Where is the proof' maimed of the Speaker. "When my honorable friend is looking about for proof, I would suggest that a lot of proof ls down in tho West. Indies or the Bahamas orrwherever Dr. Hog; is." "Won't you accept W any man's word I'" asked the Premier. "Are all men liars ?" "You spent two months touring the Province saying that we had our hands in the Beauharnois Com- pany's pockets." said Mr. Macaulay. He pointed out that the Premier had got rid of Mr. Roebuck and T. Stewart Lyon. former Chairman of the Commission, "and so that left Mr. McQuesten on the Commission." bedx tt A- proof?" was doe It!" Says McQuesten Would Quit. He then claimed that newspapers reported that Mr. McQuesten ham swayed the caucus on the power policy and had threatened to resign If there was a reversal in policy. " suggest to the Prime Minister that was the reason why the. con- tracts were not announced or why the change in policy was not an- nounced. McQuesten threatened to resign." "That's absolutely untrue," de- clared Premier Hepburn with heat. and he claimed that Mr. Macaulay was helittlirut himself hy using in- formation which might. have leakod out of cauvus. "You know," ho add- ed. "that. members are sworn to serreey." "Yes. I got a report." said Mr. Hepburn. "But it was simply a per- sonal discussion with one of the engineers. I didn't agree with his views." Mr.Nacauha.v stated again tho information was puhPe property, having appeared in the papers. Wants Mch-sten Stand. "There has been no pubiid (.oitre on the methods you adopted in fool- ing the people on the Hydro issue." Cites Reorganization. What convinced him, said Mr. Macaulay, that there was more be- hind "the outer facade" than the, Premier had admitted was the fact that the Hydro Commission had been reorganized without including a single member of the old Com- mission. Mr. McQuesten. he stressed. should tare the House. as he had promised to do, and state his position, and give the press and the public the benefit of his views " a former Commissioner. It should not be overlooked, said he, that the same Mr. McQuesten had at one time been unequivocal in his barking of Mr. Roebuck's policies. Now, he appeared very silent and very reticent. The Opposition Leader said he would not say that Mr. Hepburn "I suggest that, the member for West Hamilton (Mr. McQuesten) was unsympathetic to the change in policy." continued Mr. Macaulay. "Ho is still against, tho change of policy and he intimated in his Thrones speech debate address that he would make his stand clear. Why isn't he "1 presume you got it from Dr. Hogg, and long before the elec- tion?" "Oh, I am not suggesting that he Is running away," said Mr. Ma- caulay. "But he hasn't taken the opportunity of making his statement on the policy in the House" Mr. Macaulay reminded the Prime Minister that back in 1937 he had announced he would get a report on the Province', power needs from a committee that would look into the situation. Premier Hepburn explained that Mr. McQuesten was in Ottawa on Government business. Premier Hepburn stand that Mr. MeQuesten had gone into the Ham- ilton Centre by-election where Hydro policy was a main issue, "and the election showed that the people were satisfied." in his seat today? Mr. Macaulay warned the Premior that ho was "utterly mistaken" if he regarded such an election result. as a "hlanket approval of policies false or sound, and that such an attitude would lead to his ultimate defeat. personally negotiated with Beau- harnois before the election. "But somebody was explaining the new contracts at the time." said he. "Somebody knew before the elec- tion what, was going on. So I say bluntly tn tho Prime Ministor,may- br Mr. MoQuesten know about it, and that is why possibly he wouldn't "prove of any change before the vote. Is that not right?" "That's entirely Gong," snapped Mr. Hepburn. WIS Report Asked. an