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EThinIu Public Accounts Committee Is Doing Very Nicely-Was Or- ganized for Just Such a Job - Doherty F e e I 3 Royal Commission Might Protect Characters Now V Getting Besmirched I "Two weeks ago," said Mr. Do- ,herty, in raising the question, "I 'mlde a request that the matters be- Ittrre the committee be referred to a [Royal Commission. At the time t felt that the inquiry would be more exhaustive and the results nuire completely satisfactory to everyone lit made through and by a Royal iCommission." 3 Col. Currie-Are thev not getting tout enough? Mr. Doherty-yes, but, Mr. Speak- er, I am still prepared to stand in the same position. My attitude and 'that ot those whom I lead in this .Hoube is that this inquiry cannot bo itoo full and exhaustive, but should ' be fair to all. Now, I have nothin; ito complain of at all; members of ithe committee up to the present thave shown a disposition to he an- solutely fair in all matters. but in the progress of the investigation matters have come up and been re- ferred to. ittBinutttiorts left of mat- PREMIER "FED UP" WITH COMMISSIONS Until some adequate reason for . different procedure is given the Gov- ernment. the Public Accounts Com.. mince, and not a Royal Commission, yin continue to conduct investiga- tldns into Province of Ontario bond It!" and all the other matters enter- ing into the present inquiry. Premier Ferguson so pronounced in the Legislature yesterday when, before the orders of the day were called, Hon. Manning Doherty, Pro- gressive Leader, repeated his request. that the matter be turned Oh er to " Royal Commission for "thorough and ethgugthre inquiry." " have not the legal training.' he said, "to do Justice to those whose names may be incriminated. 1 haw: no desire to protect any person ','," he is guilty. but I do not want, bc, cause of my Inability. to see any i» dlvldual person besmirched." Brink Discussion Cut Off. Brisk discussion ensued between the Premier and R. L. Brackin K.C., Liberal member for Wes: Kent, after the Liberal member haul commented upon proceedings in which, he said. statements were made and insinuations thrown out which never would be permitted in a. court of Justice. The Premier pro- telted at a discussion of public ac- counts proceedings at the present stage. which, he said, was decidedly not in the public interest, and event- ually cut oft a. threatening debate by Iirwoking the rules of the Legisla- Iture. ters of which I was absolutely ig- norant, and which, I am free to con- fess to this House, I felt I had not the training which fits me to be able to do justice to those whose names may be incriminated. Would Avoid Bcsmlrching Innocent. I have no desire to protect any person it he is guilty, but I do not want, because of my inability. to see any individual person besmirched. It becomes a. very serious matter, and I will confess that within the last twenty-four hours, when one of the witnesses was in the box, I felt that if I had had legal training I mlr'ht have brought out some facts FER G tttthit REFUSES R 0 YA L COMMISSION TO PROBE SCANDALS lg a't , At any rate, the proper forum is} the present organization, and until; some good reason is shown to thel Government why it should be de- prived of its ordinary work and l duty I am unable to acquiesce or ac- l cept my honorable friend's (Mr. Do- I herty's) suggestion. It may be, and it I does so look sometimes, that there! ,will be ample opportunity tori Icounsel before the whole thing is! over, and then there will be no doubt I {that Justice will be meted out in; 'a proper way that nobody can criti- l cize, but up to the present I have: seen no reason why I should inter-l ltere or the Government should dis- 3 'turb the methods being pursued with i n respect to the public accounts. a I do not think that the functions of 'the important committees of the ,House should be taken fronycthertt Ior that they should be deprived'of Cearrying on an investigation. which is the very purpose for which such a committee is appointed and cre- ated. If you were not examining into questions of expenditure, what would be the object of having a Public Accounts Committee? That committee was delegated by this House an authority to investigate. inquire into, any phase of the public , tlnaneet, or the handling of any pub- lie money, even to the question of salaries paid. Justice to Everybody. I cannot understand why I should he expected to take this work en- tirely out of the ordinary organiza- tion that the House provides for it. There is no reason given. There is no suggestion of impropriety. no suggestion of unfairness. Moreover, Royal Commissions, as experience has taught us. are rather expensive luxuries, and sometimes not entirely satisfactory. I have not abiding faith in a Royal Commission. and I do not think my honorable friends over there have abiding faith, and I agree with my honorable friend from West Kent (Mr. Brackin), who says that if he had a Royal Commission after him he would not have faith. that. were not brought out, and l more than ever realized that some person should be there who had the proper legal training. I feel the matter has gone far enough. and the matters suggested are serious enough, that you and we want this matter gone. into thoroughly and ex- haustively in all its branches, and the people will he satisfied with rothing else, and therefore I again ask you if you do not how feel that the ends of justice, would he served hy referring this matter to a Royal Commission? What About Mr. Tuner. Mr. Wilson (Conservative. Wind- sort asked if the ex-Attorney-Gen- oral had not sufficient legal training to handle the situation. and Mr. Do- herty replied that there had been an understanding that Mr. Raney would not id this session be asked to do any night work or shoulder extra responsibilities or worries other than those of any member In the House. _ fl "We know the ex-Attorney-Gen- oral is still capable of making vigor- ous speeches in the House at times." remarked the Premier. " am not asking any quarter at all." said Mr. Haney. Why Committee Exists. Mr. Pertruson---With regard to my honorable friend's request. usu- ally I am very glad to defer to the members of the House, especially those who speak with any responsi- bility for any number in the House. There ls A good deal in what my honorable friend says. that an in- quiry in respect of what appears to be a most serious matter should he most exhaustive and. complete, but I gather from the press and from the information that comes to me from. other sources that the com- mittee is, as my honorable friend says, carrying on this investigation on a very high plane of fairness and Justice to everybody. There has {men no complaint of any kind. and P rt Mr. Brackin - My honorable friend knows full well that when it comes time to talk I may suffer from handicaps under which he never suffers, because any time Is the time for him.- Mr. Bracki-n -- My honorable friend uses a Toronto erpre-ton the meaning of which I do not un- derataatd-that Mm: in, or com t Mr. Brtutkin--it the Prime Minls- {ten is in order, then I presume I am. Mr. Curedts--You would not suf- ter very much as far as talking is concerned, or you would not be butting in here now. .. - Mr. Currie-Has this committee decided anything? Mr. Braekin--Not yet. Batting In. Mr. Currier-Wedl, then, it is time tor you to be, buttingin. - - -- ', Speaker 'fho%aair.Li""iirinnd re- Imind my honorable friend there is (irtiiiiiniil"beiiri' the Chair. R. L. Bmkin, K.C., Liberal ber for West Ictnp---ya £21."; moment would I think of advocating ', that this matter should be taken out of the hands of the Public Accounts Committee. but if my honorable friend the Prime Minister were in the Public Accounts Committee he would see that every day witnesses are making statements before that committee that they never would he l permitted to make in a court. of jus- itice or before a Royal Commission, Iand the reputations of men who have Jbeen in public life in this Province 'are being blackened by exactly the .gsame kind of procedure which is go- iing on in Washington today before ithe Senate Committee, where por- Esons are being allowed to go into ithe witnesa-bok, and because it is a committee. because it is not bound by the ordinary rules of evidence..-. and perhaps it is right that it ishould not bttr.--and being permitted itp say that a'man who is dead told 'them this and so about somebody 'else. For example, we had the other 'night Mr. Clarkson giving evi- dence--- l Mr. Ferguson-what is my honor- able friend speaking to now? OI Mr. Fertrusott---weli, that may be. But the committee is for gathering information. It is not trying any- body. It is pursuing every avenue that would give it any information, and as a result of that information something may happen or may not happen. Mr. Ferguson---0h, rio; my honor- able friend cannot go that far. No Motion Before Chair. Stalker Thompson - There has been a, question asked, and the Prime Mimster has answered, and them 13 no motion before the Chair. oath. Mr. Ferguson-No; I did not want to interrupt my honorable friend. but I think the House will agree that it is not desirable at this stage that we should discuss the proceedings at Public Accounts or the witnesses. The time will come when the Public Accounts Committee makes its re- port, and it the matter is to be dis- cussed then it can be discussed. With regard to the one matter, my honorable friend has said that things are said and suggestions and insinua- tions are made; that occurs in the House. 7V,,,,,,-'. -i-mr.P9%.r 1,11» 'Jlla'll Mr. Brackin-I thought the hon.. orable member for East Kent had moved the adjournment. To Gather Information. Blackcnlng Reputations. '. Raney---Not said here under a be taken out ublic Accounts my honorable mister were in Committee he day Witnesses :s before that ever would be a. court of jus-