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i (b) Nor until the Govern- ment has submitted to the I courts under the Constitutional Questions Act the question l whether this bill is within the constitutional authority of this Assembly to enact. and received the answer of the courts to such ' a question. 'Allowing People to Rule. i, He had confidence enough in the people of Ontario to allow them to decide whether they would icontinue the Ontario Temperance 1 Act or substitute something else for :it. said A. C. Lewis (Conservative. ' Northeast Toronto). "We propose to follow the best traditions of British Parliamentary practice, ot British 1 democracy, in allowing the will of the '_peo'p1e to rule in this matter." I Mr. Lewis claimed that on the _ Government Slide of the House there were more supporters of the o. T. A. than in the whole House member- ship of the combined Orvpositions. For himself, speaking as represent- ing a. dry riding. they were pre- pared to support the Government, in submitting to the people, when there was a demand for a. vote, an op- 'portunit.y of again affirming their attitude on the qutstirm of pro- .hi'bltlon. He Waugh: it i'lysurd to , .. --v-e.s-------"-'""e'. compare such a law, governing a social question on which there was I a decided difference of opinion, with (ite, robbery, burglary. or murder. Even if there was no demand at all lthere should be a revote after a l reasonable period. Betrayal, Says Mr. Bailey. iNot Side- Might Be Attacked. "It he: come to my attention re- cently." he sold, "that this bill may be attacked in the courts. and the courts may declare that the Legisla- ture has not the power to pass such an act, and, I suppose. in that one: the hill may go as far as the Privy Council, and those who are in favon of the chance to repeal the O.T.A might be (need with the prospect ol not being allowed to have 9. refer- endum for probably two years." Moves tmtnunendment. In rising-Ito speak to Mr. Cant. manners amendment to the amend- ment. Mr Barney said he would he willing to make way for any mem- ber who would explain to the House the sufficiency of the demand tor this bill. It the Ontario Temper- ance Act was not germane to this debate, then there was no subject before the House. The bill before the House was a betrayal of the people of Ontario of the promise the now Prime Minds- ter made to the people of Ontario before the elections, proceeded Mr, Raryey. - "In what respect?" awed Mr. Femmn. "I am going to point that out at once," retorted the East Wellington member. He then read a. quotation from the speech delivered during the election by Mr. Ferguson at Bpettcer- v-ille. which concluded as follows: "It at any time there shwld be a sufficiently manifested desire tor a change in the law to warrant the Government in believing that there is a real public demand for such a change, it will he the duty of the Government to ask the people, by their votes, to pronounce upon the subject." Mr. Carmichael then moved " amendment to the amendment seconded by J. W. Freeborn, Mid. dieapx. as follows: That this House do not pro- Ceed further with this bill (a) until the Prime Minister has given to the House his assur- ance that, in the opinion of the Government, there has been manifested a. desire for a. change in the law sumcient to warrant the Government in be- lieving that there is a real pub- lic demand tar such a change. "Where is the 'rumciently mani.. fetrteA desire?" asked Mr. Ranpy. "Alt over the country," 'called Inst several members. Mr. Raney declared that he had asked the Prime Minister last Thursday it in his view there was such a aumciently manifested desire now, and "he aide-stepped the ques- Hon." declared Mr. Rene." V_ ',. Says bt/o/russian, tfa r. L Mr. Ferguson came to his feet and retorted that the Prime Minister had no desire to side-step any question. He went on to say that this 1etritsla- tion was based on a pledge he gave the people, when Mr. Raney. amid some disorder, claimed his right 'Ill the floor. The Prime Minister could) not make a speech, he said. "We've had too many speeches interjected into other members' speeches." Again he put the question to the Prime Minister as to whether there was today a real public demand for a vote. The Premier countered by asking Mr. Raney if. supposing public opin- ion did manifest itself next fall, "could you take the vote without this machinery?" Desire tor a Vote. "It is quite obvious that you} couldnt" replied Mr. Haney. "That, does not touch my question at all."' If, he continued. there was, in the mind of the Government. a suffi- ciently manifested desire for a vote, then the Government was Justitind. "If there is not, there is no place in this House for this legislation." The request to the people to pass on the subject comes after the Gov- ernment is assured that there is a manifest desire. continued Mr. Reney. and not before it. "It honor- able members opposite---" their minds would work so that they had tratistted themselves the pledge was being carried out by the submission ot this bill without the Prime Min- ister coming to the Legislature and saying such a demand is manifest, then that was their affair." It w"iiii'"'ndt-torrhothintr that former Attorney-Generals sought for legis- lative authority t9 frame questions "1!.ch nuns-vu-v, -v -_e_-e'i" - on liquor referenda and p1ehitreitps, continued Mr. Raney. It the bill went through and a series of queso tions were placed before the elec- torate. each elector could vote on one or two or three questions. as the case might be. Formerly, in 1919, he had to vote on them all. Then, who was going to settle the question of the voters' lists? " Proposed Law Ultra Tires? Mr. Haney then cited the instance of the Initiative and Referendum Bill in Manitoba in 1919. The Privy Council. he said, held that the at- tempt by the Legislature to legislate with the approval of the people without the 'intervention and consent and approval of the Lieutenant-Gov- ernor-in-Councii was ultra virea of the Manitoba Legislature. "I think there is suave dotrtrt of the power ot ;this Legislature to enact this law," I he said. Premier Ferguson asked if he thought it would not be better for him to wait the passage of this legis- lation. and in his capacity of protec- tor of the people to attack it and set it aside. Mr. Haney answered warmly in the negative. He said he was not representing any private body ot citizens, but was in the House as a representative. "Mlsryiy.ty is to bring to the attention of the House anything that aspears to me to be an obstacle to t e enactment ot legislation by the House." Continuing, Mr. Raney cited a pos- sible objection to the questions when framed. maybe by some supporter of the Government, or by the liquor interests, or by friends of the On- tario Temperance Act, and the mat- ter then would be brought into the courts. It might take three years to reach a ttnal decision, and in the meantime the whole question would be hung up. The proper time to ascertain the legality of the measure was now. "This Bill Is a. Mere tmen." After referring again to the Manitoba case. upset because it was a. law that was not obliged to receive the assent of the Lieutentutt-9overnor-in - Coun- cil, Mr. Raney continued re- specting the bill now before the Ontario House; "This bill is a mere shell. The Government l is to supply the kernel. It's a. frame. The picture is not there. It has to be painted by the Government and inserted in the frame There is no substance ' to the bill." _ _ 'mt N p "TKO Legttriature, he said, had no power to delegate its legislative au- thority to any body, whether that lbody was ah committee or court or lhappened to be twelve gentlemen Iforming the Government. "The lGovernment of this Province is a lmere committee of the Legislature. This Legislature is being asked to |refer this bill to a committee to i; legislate for the Province of 0n- l, tario." a Mr. Nickle-No. "The bill is a pure shell," continued er. Haney. "You authorize a com- l,mittee to which this is referred to lgill! it in, to give it life, substance--- " something to go on. You are au- , thorizing them to legislate for you." 3116 then read a court decision bear- jing on the Manitoba case, in which gthe Judges held that the Legislature Vcould not confer that power (of llegislating) on a body other than litgelt. §0vcrriding Lieutenant-Governor. l When the Lieutenant-Governor lassenue-d to a bill he sent an authen- iticatod copy tro the Governor-Gen- |eral~in-Oouncll at Ottawa. "This, vote, and the questions it involved, 'would be determined by an Order- in-Counc'il. There was no provision 'that an Order-in-Council be sent to Ottawa. "You are overriding by this legislation the authority of the Lleutenant-Crovernov, the pro- cediure the British North America Act declares shall be followed in every bill that is to be enacted." The ettect ot the bill, he said, was to authorize tne Governmeat. to legis- 'ate. "It this bill goes to the Governor- General and obtains his consent. does not the Crown give consent?" baked Attorney-General Nickle. - - "This is not complete," replied Mr. Raney. "Something. the vital part, goes to another authority. The substance is left to the Government and never goes on to the Govern- ment at Ottawa." The Government prepared the questions, and then the Order-in-Council would be passed which would embody these ques- tions. That was the real legislation. Legislation Next Year. The Prime Minister said that the questions would test public , opinion, and, having got that l test, the legislation made neces- l sary would come down next 1 year. l _ Attorney-General Nickle said that) in the event of the people expressingl their opinion, the expression of that; opinion in no way bound the Lieu- 1tenant-Governor until such time as ithe Legislature considered a meas- ure, it one was introduced, and then the Lieutenant-Governor would have the opportunity to give or withhold his assent. Mr. Raney concluded by saying that the Legislature was creating and endowing with its own capacity a new legislative power which owed lite own existence to the Legislature. The Government. he said, ought to Isubmit the question to the courts. Keenan Favors Early ti 1110511":le Luc puuyu. .rI.-i""'"" other opportunity of voting on this question at an early date. But when they looked into the bill itself they found it contained two principles. One was the principle of supplying the Government with machinery to act. The other was whether or not they should supply the Government with machinery to act as often, or at any time, or at as many times, or in any way it wished to act, and whether or not they should give the Government power to submit the question in any form it thinks tit. Mr. Keenan iaeidred,'arnid Con- servative applause. that he was go. ing to support the measure on the first principle of supplying machin- ery with which to take the vote. When the bill came to committee, ' ~- --- knnnfn' that the he added, "I am nopeuu m... -_-_ Government will permit amendments to the bill to provide for definite questions to be submitted to the peo- Dle on a definite date." (Lat:, r._ Kepora). that he was Bo- measure on the Jpplying machin- , take the vote. me to committee. hopeful that the rmit amendments vide for definite