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Continuing the o. T. A. debated former Attorney-General Raney said 1 'that no other matter on the order) _ paper could rival in importance -titis) lone now up for discussion. A bill; i, of such a. character should have in- i icorpox'ated in it some means of ex-i ipression of public opinion; instead,I it laid down no form of questionsi 1lnsl the Government was endeavor- ile.t to "have the steam roller put ,over the House" on Ahe bill whenH (even as recently as two hours be-i ifore, one very intelligent member; had confessed to him the fact that! he did not know the difference be- I tween a plebiscite and a reteren-, dum. The people of the Province iwould know no more after the bill, came before the House than theyi did before its contents were known. t Premier Ferguson interrupted: with the statement that notice ofi the legislation, which was "purely! enabling," had been on the order' paper for two weeks. There was not I a. municipality in the country which : had not the power to submit any 'question it liked to its electors. The' present bill was very similar to the ione brought down in the Saskatche- iwan Legislature this week, except 'that the Ontario Government was itaking upon itself the full responai. liaiiirr of the administration of the Mr. Sinclair said he thought it was a, fair interpretation of public understanding to say that everyone expected a vote under conditions similar to those obtaining at the last vote. But he noted that Premier Ferguson lrudetated it was to be a plebiscite. He submitted that the Premier was not now acting up to the usually high standard he set for himself. Complains ot Wide Powers. a Government with 47 of a majority should be strong enough and brave enough to say to this House what it is going to do and why it is going to do, it and when it is going to do it. the matter. "When you analyze the powers conferred in this bill, it is wonder- ful the ingenuity that a Cabinet must have who ask us to pass this bill. I have made a thorough analysis or Subsection 2, and I tind there are 32 alternatives within the four corners of this subsection-S.? alleys up which the Government may to. "What I submit is that those who wish to have a vote want some- thing more than this act. Those who want a vote want to know the date and what the vote is about when this is going through the Legis- lature. Those who do not want a vote also want to know when the date is and what the vote is about." "What I complain about is the wide powers which this act gives the Government." he said, "and it de- parts entirely from the principle laid down in this Legislature in regard to these questions in its previous legislation. It leaves the whole thing open. There is nothing settled or Ire? @2933: 1:. Itf I dc gctpclt List all their Judgment and wisdom and authority to a Cabinet of "even or eight men." This Act Is a "Repeater." "This act." he proceeded. "is a re- peater. The Lieutenant-Governor- in-Council may from time to time, it says, take these votes. It can be brought out at any time. and the Legislature has nothing to say about the matter. "There is no reason why members of this House should be asked to support a. bill of this kind, brought down on this important question, although the Government, as I have said, has thought it desirable, to incorporate a clause so as to give it a good appearance about the reten- tion by the members of their rights. "Steam Roller," Says Bailey. Government. have done '11: (lumen: page". submit the questions to this ) House and have them incorporated f in the act of the Legislature. The Legislature should use its mandate! and not leave this matter to the LieuteminirdiG;iiCrirCt2"iniii. We are here as the elected representa- tives of the people. They look to us to act on their behalf, to do what in our best Judgment is best for them, and they do not tor one mo- n'lent send 111 men here to hand over measure. _ - ...- to, Fftaash lt "Why doesn't he take the House into his confidence?" asked Mr. Raney. A storm of hand-clapping and Watic statements, "He did!" came as his reply from the Govern- ment side of the House. Later, when Mr. Raney mentioned the word "cotvviction,," Mr. Ferguson gibed: "You can't get that word 'oonviction,' out of your head," while Mr. Rarrey "touted with an. Mr. Haney then tried to draw out Mr. Ferguson on the intent of the Government, but Mr. Ferguson coun- tered with the statement that he could not disclose Cabinet Council secrets. . Mr. Isney---steamurtmer bility, with elections four , tant. Mr. Ferguson-yes. We are ing tug responsibility. Mr. Itaney---Theae questions, then, are to be framed by the Prime Min- ister? "It's a very questionable bill all through." commented Sam Clarke, tNorthumberland, from the Liberal benches. l "White " the Question?" "But," protested Mr. Bailey, "the Saskatchewan bill fixed the questions to be asked. Where is the question in this bill?" Perhaps, he suggested. his suc- ~wagons; dimeu1ties were greater than Itis had been because a. considerable mmber of Conservative membem .nseltsding some members of the Government, were not in sympathy with the act. Th ah situation, he de- shared. had been further coupled with the vreious patronage system. which the Government had reintro- 1-uceu1 in the appoimtment of License fvimtpeet.tyrst in some parts of the I'ivi-incty who were not only unsuit- ed to the work, but who were known to he unsympathetic to the law. Figures which he quoted he held as proof that the O.T.A. had not failed. Liquor manufacture and oomrumption had decreased enorm- ously. "Is it any wonder." he asked, "that the breweries ,3er clamoring fer a change?" Decrease In Convictions. ' 'Qulps from the Conservative benches became frequent as Mr. Haney quoted figures showing the decrease in convictions for drunken- ness in various cities of the Prov- ince. In Belleville in 1914 there were 63 jail sentences for drunken- ness. "Is that all?" came from the Liberal benches. "They didn't get them all." Again, when the speaker quoted figures for Toronto, showing a decrease of from 3.073 to 2,011 between 1914 and 1922, Col. Currie interpolated that the dangers of bootleg whiskey to- day. conetitpted_a greater. penalty. "As Sir william Hearst predicted, there are, of course, violations of this law. but on the whole it is being observed and is doing incaleuliable good. So far m: open sallo is con- cerned, the law is not difficult. to en- force. Bo far as clandestine sale is runner-med» enforcement is dimtyu)t in inst the same sense t.hat enforce- ment of the law against hank nob- bens a,nd.piekpockets is difficult." May Be More Dlmcult Now. "Why a third referendum in a period of fix-tt years? Because I as- sume. that if this bin is named there will be a referendum by next au- tumn. If not. why this bill at this session of the Legislature? Has the law failed to meet the test pre- scribed by Sir William Hearst? Is there an honorable member of this House who in his heart does not know that it has met that test? tmd . e .sl' r/ ' reapongi- years dis- Mr. Haney then pointed out that gall the men who, under his regime. had been engaged to enforce the {Temperance Act had been returned imen, who had honestly worked to (the enforcement of the measure. 3 "Is that to include my friend "'lastone" asked Premier Ferguson- t "As I knew him." replied Mr. lRaney, "he Was a model officer. If She has since gone wrong he is not ithe first man who has succumbed. ;It is a difficult law to enforce in ithe sense that the officers are con- ' tinually open to temptation." . Referring again to the.Premie~r's references, made before the last elec- ltivon. to the Provincial enforcement force and to his statement that 110 "would not go to the ceatrpootte ot vice to recruit his police" if he (the present Premier) were elected. Mr. I Haney asked: _ Results of inv.eathriitiiiiieirraiiic taken among various section; of the community were also quoted tomb ow that a general state of manna"! existed. "Therefore," he said, "t do not at all agree with those good people who say that prohibitioh its, still in the experimental stage, andi that the popular vote ought to be' postponed until the experiment has worked out. The experiment nae al- rnady been worked out, and the ex- Ircriencrl of Ontario has vindicated the statesmanshlp of Sir William Hearst." Government Back In Bondage. 1Vhy. he asked, was the Govern.. ment putting an interrogation mark after the law? It was because the Prime. Minister of the Province had heard "his master's voice." Nine years ago a Government achieved its independence of the liquor trade. and now the Leader of the present Government was leading - in fact. had already led - the Government back into bondage. - _ After he had "traced the Prime Minister's descent from the table- land of moral reform" by quoting the Premier's speech of several months ago at the Toronto Conser- vative Club, where he said: "Means must be found to remedy such a "What was Mr. Ferguson's motive in 'bmadcastin-g these abominable and tranarparent falsehoods? What mo- tive could he have had except to serve the ends of the men who were then, and are now, tbent on the de- struction of this law? dangerous condition-some means to allow people to exercise a God- glven freedom under reasonable re- strictions," he invited members of the House to "applaud that." A number accepted his invitation. "Now," he declared, "pick out, the wets." Protests "Juggernaut" Methods. Mr. Haney asked if the Govern- ment intended to crowd the question through to a vote during the even- ing. If so, he would again protest against the "duggernaut" methods which the Government was adopting. Premier Ferguson replied ttlat He did_notynow what might happen. Mr. Haney continued: "You have it that in February, 1922, the present Prime Minister had slipped off the table-land-he had no principles at all on the liquor, question. He was without compass or rudder. He was wuuuuL compass or ruauer. he was on the way, but didn't know where he was going. But, he did see a beacon light ahead - and by some means or other, by hook or by crook, the wine and beer goal of the Toronto Conservative Club must be attained. The whole House rocked in con- vulsions for a few minutes when Mr. Raney recalled Premier Fergu- son's references. made Just before the election, to "petty tyranny.",', The phrase, held Mr. Raney, was! applied to the O.T.A. But Conserva- tive memtiqirs interrupted to claim! that the reference was not to the act, but to the administration of the act} byuthe Wrp.er Attorney-General. I "In all these months, from Mr. Ferguson's Hamilton speech in Feb- ruary. 1922, until May, 1923, I have yet to discover one word in any of the reports of Mr. Ferguson's public utterances-one word of friendliness toward the O.T.A.," said Mr. Raney. Difficult Law to Enforce. Mr. Haney then pointed out that Ill/lt men who, under his regime. at boon "mm-tri.-..-... ' -