Before negotiating the new Que. ittett agreements. the Hydro Com- .mission. said Mr. Houck. had eon. sidered exhaustlvoly the question at development within the Prov- ince. Even if international and Inter-Dominion complications over the M. Lawrence were settled in a manner satisfactory to all parties. six years. said Mr. Houck, would be required in eonstruetlttn before power would be available for the Niagara System. 1 'Oh, yes. It was-400nm of time," er. Macaulay shot. bark. "I ran oroduee lots of quotations and I will undertake to bring them into this House." " Lawrence Not Ala-mun. "the possibility of power genera- tion on the St. Lawrence," he add- ed, "offers no alternative to the purchase of Quebec power. The previous Attorney-General and Hydro Commissioner recognized this difficulty. and said so in the House, and yet today he would con- demn us for wasting our opportuni- ties to bring about some settlement of diffteultieg over boundary waters." To rely upon the Madawaska as " alternative to Quchec power would also be "toolurdy," Mr. Houck stated. And Mr. Roebuck. he added. had also well realized the difficulties surrounding generation on the Ottawa. Today, he said. Mr. Roebuck was telling the Legisla- ture that he had pressed vigorously for some agreement between On- tario and Quebec with respect to Ottawa rights. and yet on March " 1937. he had taken a pessimistic View of the situation. admitting serious complications arising out of the fact that three separate legis- lative authorities exercise an ad- ministrative control over the river. Inmate Treaty Chances. tem acumen: with Ottawa Val- ley (Chats Falls) Mr. Roebuck. In " then capacity of Hydro Commis- sioner. had himself put the stamp of approval on "what he now at- "The Honorable Member for Bell- woods." said Mr. Houck. "tells us that it is impossible try any for- mula to predict in absolute cer- tainty future power demands. and in this I - with him, but I will further point out that almost in the very next breath yesterday he declared with an equally positive assurance that in his opinion we have over-purchased very consider- ably and will not need the power as it becomes available. Mr. Speaker. how many directions can the Hon. arable Member travel at one time? I am inclined to take my advice from the engineers .--. the same en- gineera. incidentally. who stood sut- tlciently high in his regard that he maintained them in office and con- curred in the payment of their very comfortable salaries. hut who did not stand sufficiently high in his regard that he cared to accept their advice." Lands Hog: " Authority. - "His name wasn"t mentioned In the campaign." Provincial Secretary Nixon added. In Mr. liouck's opinion there seemed now no greater chance of securing treaty revision with re- ttard to water diversion at Niagara than there was ten years ago. "Pri. vate Power interests operating in New York State," he said, "have for some time been pressing ac- tively for the right to further diver- sion on the American side of the Dr. Hogg, he added. was one of the most outstanding power authori- ties in the world, and " ttdvice could be depended upon. - "He wasn't Chief Engineer then," put_ In Premier Hepburn. __ _ _ "That wain't so. when you were campaigning against him In 1934." observed Mr. Macaulay. "I didn't know mine" then," partied Mr._Htyttk_._, _ J - "It will be thus observed." said Mr. Houek, "that none of the pro- posals mentioned offers an attrac- tive alternative to the purchase of 1power. Out of his own mouth the former Attorney-General eliminates (the St. Lawrence and Ottawa IRivers. and on equally positive grounds the others fail. Not only do international and interprovin- clal difficulties exercise a potent irtnuettre against their economical and mechanical feasibility. but all can unconditionally be discarded because of the length of time which would necessarily elapse before power could become available." "His imputation that the Com- mission's Chairman, Dr. Hogg, was negligent in his duties in not in. stalling shutters over the windows at the Ontario power plant in order to prevent the entry of ice is also one to which I must take exception. As a matter of fact," said he, "it re- sponsibiilty and Name must accrue to any one, it will accrue equally to members of the Commission from the time in which the Ontario plant first came under their control. Not only so. but I am advised by the engineers that the physical charac- teristics of the plant in question are such that to completely shutter the windows would result in a transfer of the stress and strain to the walls, with a possible and probable more serious result." The necessity for adequate power reserves provision had been amply and forcibly demonstrated, said Mr. Houck, in the ice jam at Niagara last. January. "It is interesting to refer to my friend's statement of yesterday. in which he strongly im- plied that the actual loss to the sys- tem was not nearly the amount of 175.000 horsepower (Ontario Com- pany plant) because the water re- leased from use at the Ontario plant was available for use at the other two plants. I am pleased to tell the former Attorney-General that such was far from the case. Actually tee conditions were so severe at the other two plants that our total loss was approximately 225,000 horse. power. Denies Negligence. river. on the other hand are groups favoring the development ot the St. Lawrence for either power or navigation purposes. It is inevi- table that these forces should opo pose. and that delay should result from their opposition. For this reason prudonro forbade. that the Commission More reliance on the pocsihility of further power gen- "The member for Bellwoods says we are going away from private ownership: It's because we've been forced to, temporarily." oration at Niagara. " least " an Immediate alternative to the pur- chase at power? "The previous Attorney-General" penchant for travelling is well known," Mr. Houck gibed. "t can recall at least two trips he took to England, and it there had been any possibility of making any headway on this water treaty issue. I am sure he wouldn't mind at all going down to Washington and having his pieture taken with the Presi- dent, and published in all the news- papers of this fair country. Gib" at Rnohuvk. At this .ittnrturr, Mr. Houck took a sharp crack at Mr. Roebuck on the water treaty revision question. Mr. Roebuck had stated that never were Mr. King and President Roosevelt in a more generous mood toward treaty revision. It that were so. he added, why hadn't Mr. Roe- buck. while In Hydro office, at- tempted to do something about the situation? "It's all right to say that now," Interrupted Opposition Leader Ma- caulay. "hut why didn't you tell your constituents that during the elec- tion l'" "If you hold ynur horses. I'll got down to that." said Mr. Hourk. "Yer, let him make his speech." Mr. Hepburn gihed. March ti . "Business can move ahead," he said. "confident that its demands will be met at any time, with power costing in the final analysis some $92,000,000 less than that provided within the period of the arrange- ments concluded by a previous Con.. servative administration. The un- derlying consideration in cancella- tion was that the system might later achieve by compromise the relief to which the people of the system were entitled. Accumulated deficits ot $12,500,000 within the tour years from 1932 to 1935 hear witness to the disregard of business principles involved in the early con- tracts. and the necessity for ac- serve. Mr. Houck said that it was the opinion at the Commission's engineers that a reserve of 75,000 horsepower over and above primary demand should be immediately available at all times. Dr. Hotrg, he said. had reached the conclusion that over and above this 75,000 pro- vision should also be made for the immediate years which Ontario is facing for an annual' increase in primary supply of 7 per cent. Un- der the contracts which existed prior to the readjustment the sys- tem, he said, would have been short 340000 horsepower of the amount required to supply a maximum de- mand by the winter of 1942. "To your sorrow," _ prompted Premier Hepburn. "To my sorrow," said Mr. Houck. Hydro's future seemed bright and full of promise, Mr. Houek declared. Decreased rates and increased surpluses bore testimony. he added, to efficiency of management and satisfactory operation. "Now, Mr. Speaker." protested Mr. Houek, "I was gentleman enough not to interrupt the honors able the Leader of the Opposition when he spoke in this debate. Let him be gentleman enough not to keep on interrupting me." Stated Potter as He Know It. Mr. Macaulay. said the Hydro Vice-Chairman. had reminded him that during the election campaign he had campaigned on a "back-to- Niagara" policy. "Well, Mr. Speak- er," said he, "t admit I stated that the policy of the Government as I know it was 'htttrk-to-Nlagara.' " "Perhaps I did that," smiled Mr. Houck. The coils". of this plant was admittedly serious. said Mr. Houck. hut the serious consequences which might naturally follow were avert- ed "because reserve power was available." Mr. Roebuck, said Mr. Houck, had deprecated the possibility of an an- nual increase of T per cent by dis- cussing the Increase in average over the years from 1927 to 1937, amount- ing. as Mr. Roebuck had claimed, " 2 per rent. "We were able fo avert disaster." he said. "because of quantities of Quebec power now available under contract." "Whose advice did you follow?" asked Mr. Macaulay. "Whose could I follow?" said Mr. Houck. "That's the way your fallow-Cam- mlssioner cr. A. Smith. M.L.A.) fig- urod it tho other day when he spoke here." intorjectrd Mr. Macaulay. "Roebuek's," put in some back- bencher. Dealing with the matter of