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2 Area Ministers Queried On US. Role In Viet Nam Re-establishment of _ the' Geneva Conference on Southeast Asia is urged by the Evangelism and Social Service Committee of the Oshawa Presbytery of the United Church of Canada. Opposition to 'the present pol- icy and action" of the United States in Southeast Asia has been expressed in a letter sign- ed by Rev. John P. Romeril of the Courtice Pastoral Charge, Rev. Charles R. Catto of Hamp- ton Pastoral Charge and Rev. John G. F. Morris of St. Andrew's United Church, Osh- awa. This. opposition and suggested calling of the Geneva Confer- ence resulted from considera- tion of five questiéns by the E and SS committee '"'in the light of their Christian conscience", say the three ministers. The questions: --By what moral right are the United States forces in South Viet Nam? --Whom does today's govern- ment of South Viet Nam repre- sent? And by what authority are they the government? --By what right does the U.S. government decide what is best for a foreign people? --By what right does-the U.S. government use another nation as a pawn in their foreign policy? --By what right do we in the West believe that our form of government must be the best for all nations? ' The Times invited these min- isters to enlarge on their views. On Thursday Rev. Romeril and Rev. Morris were interviewed in tary aid -- and when they saved Korea from a Communist take- lover -- why was it moral then, and immoral now? Romeril: It's quite a different story. In this case you send troops in to uphold a particular point of view instead of pouring in economic aid, Economic aid today should be given with no strings attached. The Christian view is that one should not ex- pect anything in return for favors. Now I believe the U.S. seldom gives anything without expecting a return -- and if they don't get it they take it. I'm sure a large part of the war in South Viet Nam is a local, possible to contain. The Times: Isn't there a chance you might be falling into a trap of accepting every move- ment under the banner of na- tionalism as an innocent expres- sion of popular will, as a non- communist movement? After all ,, in the Indo-China war 10 years ago the Viet Minh guerrillas claimed to be "nationalist" until they won and set up a communist state in North Viet Nam. Romeril; In a sense you a probably right -- we are prob- ably exchanging one dictator- ship for another -- but you can't impose a government on a peo- ple, it must develop. And as for tension in South East Asia, it will continue because of fear of China. The Times: Aren't you ignor- ing the stakes involved? If South Viet Nam. falls, Laos, Cam- The Times board room, Here is REV. MORRIS +» » Settle racial problems first an edited report of that inter- view: The Times: The United Church of Canada has been criticized of late for not taking a-stand on social and political issues -- don't you feel you're trying to remedy this now by taking a popular position. It is "safe to criticize the war in South Viet Nam today, but why did you not) speak out when the U.S. first went in, or at any time before this?' Haven't you jumped on a rather late bandwagon? Romeril: Our committee has not the same make-up as be- fore. Recently people with more interest in outside affairs have become involved. Morris: Also, things have clarified in my mind now, con- cerning the war -- the South Viet Nam government mention- ed they wanted peace talks only a short time ago, but that was squelched and we've heard no more about it, We'd like to know who's propping up this govern- ment and how long it would last if Mr. Taylor (U.S. Ambassador to Saigon, Maxwell Taylor) left -- we think the whole thing stinks .. . The Times: In your first point you mention "moral. right" -- don't you think the U.S. has a moral right, even obligation, to aid South Viet Nam resist Com- munist aggression? It was the South Viet Nam sovernment that asked for U.S. help. Romeril: It depends what you call Communist aggression. I'm sure a large part of the uprising is local, up to 70 per cent, and is organized and supported by the South Vietnamese people themselves ... Morris: And here we get the same assumption that the Amer- ican way of life is the best and must be exported -- this is an assumption that the Christian Church is not prepared to sup- port. The Times: But no one pro-| tested when the U.S. went to ~Burope's aid with the Marshall _ Plan after the Second World War -- when they helped Turkey and Greece stave off possible bodia, Malaysia and Indonesia and all the countries of the south-east may fall. Surely we're not talking about one country alone, are we, but a whole area? Morris: I agree that in the long run the whole area might go Communist -- but I'm not sure the Christian Church would find this the worst thing which could happen. The church is concerned with the well-being of people, and it looks now as if the U.S. is defending itself in Viet Nam's rice fields, They are fighting their own defensive war. Romeril: They are concerned with their front line of defence-- Viet Nam is part of that front line -- something like the At- lantic Wall of Germany (the western coast of Europe during the German occupation in the Second World War). The Times: And you are now against holding the line in such areas? Morris: If the political philo- sophy of the American People is unable to win the allegiance of the peoples of the world, and must be defended with atomic 'weapons, then what are we holding? The Times: Are you really being fair to the U.S. and its foreign policy? Surely there is method behind their man- oeuvers, namely to find the strength to bargain South Viet Nam into neutrality. Morris: It would be wonder- ful if it could be done -- but I'm afraid I don't believe it could happen. Romeril: After all the people want to be united -- to be one country -- and they won't settle for neutralism in the south. South Viet Nam has 300,000 troops and they can't hold the country, it would seem, because public support is not behind the government. The Times: But the foreign policy you now reject has been successful in the past hasn't it? It stopped a Communist take- over in Korea. | Romeril: Yes, and divided the |country. The Times: But Korea was divided before war broke out in 1950. Romeril: Yes. The Times: And isn't it an easy thing to take a moral stand over a war you're not in- volved in? Once again, are not the stakes too high to back out right now? Romeril: stakes? The Times: The containment of Communism in the Eastern Hemisphere within its present boundaries? Romeril: But you can't con- tain anything forever -- pres- sures build up and explode -- China will not be satified until South East Asia is within its sphere. | The Times: Aren't you com- ing close to appeasement? His- tory shows that appeasement only leads to heightened ambi- tions and in fact increases the Just what are the Communist take-overs with mili- REV. MORRIS .defence of our way of life possibility of war. Romeril: You. must remember that in the Christian view econ- omic and political: power are not all important -- the church} is not a nation and cannot af- ford to think as one. _ Morris: We are bothered be- cause the U.S. has become com- mitted to military action in this area when we would rather see them settle their own racial problems at home. Romeril: Remember an idea is only defeated by a_ better idea, not by arms. The U.S. has failed to come up with a better idea and is losing -- to see this isn't appeasement. The Times: All right then, do you want to see the U.S. pull out of the whole area-- out of Asia? Romeril: Morally, yes. The Times: But what of their duty to protect friendly nations in Asia -- such as Japan and the: Philippines? Are they to be abandoned and if so, how is that morally justifiable? national uprising which is im- | The Oshawa Canes OSHAWA, ONTARIO, SATURDAY, MARCH 13, 1965 A REV. ROMERIL + « « people want to be united" Morris; It seems that the Japanese government is a legiti- mate one, and a proper deal has been worked out between the two governments. If I could fe assured the South Viet Nam- ese government represented the majority of the people, then I would have to acquiesce to cer- tain military arrangements. Now the war is ostensibly to contain communism but more, it is a defence of the American, and I suppose Cana- dian, way of life. The Times: Mao Tse Tung on said victory in diplomacy will come, if necessary, '"'out of the barrel of a gun" . . . in other words, through force of arms. Do you feel as Christians that you can turn your eyes from this area, and bow to the gun? Morris: That's a good ques- tion. 'Im not a pacifist, and times do come when there seems no alternative to military might. Romeril: The church is divid- ed on this -- some feel that the only response to such force is through non-violence. For my- self, I feel I am drifting closer to pacifism all the time. Morris: This is the agony of the church right now -- when war comes how do we decide what is right? This is a very serious problem in the hearts of many of us, | The Times: Ok, but as the U.S. is trying desperately to obtain a bargaining position to bring peace to the area so they can pull out. Don't you feel its a little naive and dangerous to insist they bow to the gun and leave South Vietnam now? Romeril: Well a bargaining position would be all right-- but then what would happen if within 12 months of peace the people voted for a Communist government? The U.S. by its present policy would go right back in again. Morris: I don't think the U.S. would tolerate an election if} there was any likelihood of a Communist victory -- and it has been said that 70 per cent of the poeple in the area support the Viet Cong. The Times: Who said? Romeril: This is from a REV. ROMERIL ", .. can't impose government') writer's estimate in the news- papers-- an estimate of the! support of the Viet Cong-- and it would appear to be backed up by the Viet Cong's geo- graphical holdings. The Times: And aren't you also being naive when you keep mentioning the corruption of the South Viet Nam government an apparently ignoring the rather heavy-handed method of the Viet Cong in terrorizing large sections of the population into} supporting them. | Romeril: No, we're not ig- noring it--but it works both ways. It's the old story of the corrupt government with its local tax collectors living off the people-the way to get rid of these tax payers, it seems, has been to shoot them. What we're saying is that the U.S. claims to be defending democ- jracy, but they are in effect up- holding one corrupt govern- pment against another } ! Morris: We keep speaking of! \democracy as the best way of life--but it took us hundreds of years for us to soak up the meaning of it. Romeril: It's like-the early mis- sionaries of the church. There was an assumption that they should not only teach religion but western culture. This led to excess and failure in Africa and the East. The Times: Thank you. | Examination Of Legal Aid; How It Works For Young Harry is in trouble, He slugged a guy in a bar room brawl. The man has brought an assault charge against him. Marry feels that justice is insulting remarks about his family. just lost his temper, How can he get help, though? Things are tight enough as they are. There is no money in the bank and Harry is out of work, He needs help urgently . fees, he could not afford, however. on his side, The man made So he hit him. He Legal . + a lawyer's help. Not surprisingly Harry feels hurt. Through misfortune he can't get the help he deserves. Then he hears about the Legal Aid scheme designed for people in his position. He is interviewed, gets the aid and, in court, is given a minor suspended sentence. Without legal representation he may have received a heavy fine, Harry is just one of many Oshawa people who have made use of the scheme. Today The Times examines the Legal Aid system, and how it works in the city, By. CHRIS DENNETT (Oshawa Times Staff) Tegal Aid is by no means a little-used service in On- tario County. Every month some 50 or 60 cases pour through the local system. Half of these cases require legal assistance and perhaps court representation, The remainder involve only the quick, useful word of advice and are speedily dealt with. Generally, the system, as it serves the public, is without major fault. The problems, and there are several, lie in the administration of the 14-year-old plan. Legal Aid, as yet, has not received the official blessing or support of government legislation: The system was founded, and is maintained, by the Law Society of Upper Canada, the governing body of the legal profession in the province of Ontario. UNDER COUNTY DIRECTOR Locally the legal aid plan comes under the supervision of a county director. This man is responsible for organiz- ing the system, filtering applications and preparing reports. Here in Oshawa the director is Joseph C. Victor, an appointee of the Ontario County Bar Association. He has under his direction some 30 lawyers all over the county who handle legal aid cases. Legal aid sources are not places where just anyone can go for free legal assistance, It is not a free legal clinic. Legal Aid was founded by the Law Society to help those people unable to afford legal representation. These days legal representation can be an expensive business. A defence for a traffic charge may cost anywhere between $50 and $100, On more serious offences legal fees can be very expen- sive, indeed, The Law Society has eligibility rules for applicants. No one above a certain low income level can claim assistance. The eligibility rule reads as follows: '"'Any unmarried person having annual earnings or other means of subsistence or less than $1,700 and any married person having annual earnings or other means of subsistence of less than $2,500, together with an additional amount of. $300 for each depen- dent, and having insufficient disposable capital to pay for legal assistance." This is the formal basis on which decided. applications are COULD HAVE RAISED MONEY "But," explains Mr. Victor, "we tend to play it very much by ear. The other day, here who was asking for legal for instance, I had a man in aid, "He owned his own house but could not afford legal help in a family court matter. could have raised the money on his house. the help. He deserved it." Legal aid cases are han lawyers of 10 years or less Now strictly speaking, he But we gave him died, under the. system, by experience. Lawyers with over 10 years' experience are left free to carry on their practices free of interruption Lawyers eligible to handle roster. legal aid cases work a duty Each lawyer is appointed to a month of duty. During the month he handles all cases that are channeled through the system. At the end of the month another lawyer takes over the work. With over 30 lawyers on the legal aid roster duties come around infrequently. Lawyers are 'grateful for this. willingly and free of charge bu ber of working hours. HALFWORKING DAY Mr. Victor calculates that They provide the service t it can eat into a large num- a lawyer handling legal aid cases may spend as much as half his working day away from his own business. Unlike Caesar, Stay Home, Monday Is Ides Of March Beware the Ides of March! So went Willie Shakespeare's unheeded tip to Julius Caesar, Julius was bound he was going to address the Roman Senate. He was punctured by the knives of his "friends" in- stead | Monday is the Ides (15th) of Merch If. you have' any 'friends" who throw knives for a hobby, avoid them. Tell them to join a circus, ; If you see any of the city) fathers being assailed in front of City Hall Monday, don't worry It could be a re-enactment of Julius' death scene. Or it could be an trate tax-) payer trying to get the lowdown| on the upcoming mill rate in-| crease Has anyone seen the fi- nance chairman lately? Trying} to borrow gold from Fort Knox} at five per cent, you say? | If you want to pretend next Monday doesn't exist, give' it a! try, Pope Gregory XIII "scrub-| bed" 10 whole days back in 1582) trying to bring some semblance of order to the Julian calendar In designating the days of the} month. the Romans reckoned! backward. from three _ fixed| points: the calends,' the nones| and the ides, The calends were always the first day of the month. The ides fell on the 15th in March, May, July and October -- and on the 13th in other months, The nones came on the eighth day before the ides. Thus, Jan- uary 13 was called the ides of| ; January while January 14 was the 19th day before the calends of February, This kind of figuring, even with an abacus, would drive a computer right into a short-cir- cuit. Anyway, stay home Mon- day. Antique Club -- Reviews Books Members of the newly-formed Antique Collectors' Club perused and discussed a collection of books and reference material from the reference library of Mrs. A. Guest. They also viewed pieces from a_ collection of Mrs. G. C. Gutsole. At the next meeting, March 16, each member is to bring one or two items from their collection, around which general discussion will centre, favorite LEGAL AID IDEAL: ACCUSED WITH COUNSEL This, inevitably, causes problems. A lawyer's time is money. Duty rosters are distributed to the county jail, crown attorney's office, welfare agencies and other useful points. From these sources the cases pour in. The vast majority are comparatively simple legal mat- ters, Most involve family court matters. A wife who wishes to take her husband to family court is a frequent user of the plan. She has no income of her own and thus has no choices but to turn to legal aid. Very few eligible applicants are turned away. Lawyers may refuse to take a case on only one ground + «.» @ previous criminal record. A' man with two or more previous convictions is dis- qualified from assistance under the plan. This does not mean to say, however, that a man who is faced with a serious charge, such as murder, rape or man- slaughter, would go without legal representation. On these indictable offences, where the defendant faces a jail sentence, a judge will appoint counsel. In some cases, too, an experienced lawyer may offer to handle a serious case at little or no charge just for the thrill and challenge of a true court room drama. PLAYED BY EAR Because of the fact that legal aid is played '"'very much by ear" some people, inevitably, try to take advantage of the scheme. A Toronto director reports that as' many as 50 cases a month are turned away when some kind of concealed mon- etary support is found. Sometimes it is the ownership of a car which the appli- cant could easily sell to pay for his legal costs. The posses- sion of money with a trust company is also easily concealed. Despite these minor dishonesties, however, local direc- tors continue to give applicants the benefit of the doubt. There is great justification for this. Rule three of the legal aid plan states: "Where,, al- though disqualified, in the opinion of the provincial director on recommendations of the county director the applicant, if required to pay for legal services, would impair his ability to furnish himself and his family with the essentials neces- sary to keep them decently fed, clothed, sheltered and liv- ing together as a family . .-. " then legal aid could be ad- ministered. For good reasons the Law Society and the local direc- tors play the legal aid rules with great fairness. (On Monday, the probl of ad tering Legal Aid. Criticisms and improvements. And legal aid from the law- yer's point of view.) ini he Poor a isetting"'. "A one-day shutdown of con- struction by union pickets on the $500,000 addition to Hills- dale Manor has been halted by Ontario Supreme Court injunc- tions: Members of Local 1832, Bro- therhood of Painters, stopped work on the 100-bed addition be- cause of a dispute with the painting sub-contractor Jack A MacDonald and Son, Nassau street "The picket line came off Fri- day and the men will be back to work Monday," ,said Mr. MacDonald today. "We have labor laws in this country. There are going to be some heavy lawsuits over this." . Mr. Macdonald said that one of the two injunctions prohibits picketing the project and the other "is for watching and be- Irving Kelner, of Toronto, Lo- cal 1832 business representative, said today a union executive member has received an injunc- tion. "I've heard there is one out against me but I haven't got it yet. "We threw the picket-line up 'because we want another agree- ment with the MacDonald com- pany, but we won't sign with him unless he posts a $1000 performance bond," Mr. Kelner said the perform- ance bond demand is a result of events which led to an arbi- tration board hearing in a dif- ferent dispute last year. "The board gave us $735 in a judgment against the com- pany because of non-payment Work Block | Unjammed By Court Order |. pon A ic to. five union members," he said, "The company paid $100, and no more, until our picket line went up Thursday. Now we want him to post the bond be- fore we go any further." Mr. Kelner said there is no current agreement with the company. "We asked them te negotiate about a year ago but {MacDonald said he was too busy." Bi. Another union demand, said Mr Kelner, is the establishy ment of a grievance committee, manned by union and manage+ ment representatives. He stated that normal griev- ance procedures '"'just don't work with the MacDonald coms pany". * When the picketing began) Mr. Kelner said it would cone tinue until an agreement, oF the performance was signed. . "TAKE ALL WAY" "Now I'm going to take this all the way, We have the sup port of the Toronto Labor Coun: cil. We will consult with bev executive officers and lawye! over the weekend and decide what course of action to take.'? W. D. Johns, Hillsdale Manor superintendent, said five pain ers were working on t ground-floor addition, Plumb ers, electricians and plasterers working on the second floor hone ored the painters' picket-line. He said between 90 and 106 senior citizens are wai td enter the addition. And without further delays, the ground floor -hould be finished in about a month, the second floor two: t@ three weeks later. i of travelling time and expenses Over 150 teachers gathered at the Dr. S, J. Phillips School yesterday for a teaching work- shop sponsored by the Oshawa and District Council of the ---- Reading Associa- on. Speaker for the evening was Dr. Donald Cleland, of the Uni- versity of Pittsburgh Reading Laboratory. He was assisted in the workshop by Dr. Elaine Vil- _ his deputy at the Univer- sity. Teachers' Workshop Hears: Two Educators On Reading , Po Dr. Cleland spoke on the mods ern, and in some cases, contro- versial methods of teaching thé art of reading. He described the various methods, their begins s and how they had sucs ceeded in actual classroom ex+ periments. ps The talk was followed by @ group discussion with teacherg putting questions to Dr. Clee land. The workshop continued this morning with classroom demonstrations by Dr. Vilscek, At Regiment ment presented a The band of the Ontario Regi- "pop con- cert" of light, easy-to-listen-to| Easy-To Listen-To Music : Band Concert also included in the program, also a number of British sea shanties by Henry J. Wood. iate Auditorium last night. wide variety of music. There were sea shanties, regimental music at the McLaughlin Colleg- A packed audience heard a Rose", "My Mammy", marches, a few of the popular|Neyer Walk Alone" and Vocal soloist for the perform ance was Oshawa's well knows and talented baritone, Ross Cot- ton who sang "Mighty Lak 2 "You "T} classics and even a dash Rodgers and Hammerstein. The performance was conduct- ed by Captain G. B. C. Quick. Master of Seremonies for the evening was Colonel W. C. Paynter. The evening started with a rousing march, Punchinello. The band then moved on to play the popular and dynamic overture "Caliph of Bagdad'. Four instrumental solos fol- lowed. These were played by Al Cooper: on trombone, Bill Whitsitt with a delightful ren- dering of the Welsh air "Watch- ing the Wheat" on the Euphon- jum, Bill's 14-year-old son Zan played a variation on "Silver Threads Among the Gold' on the Eb Alto Horn, followed by a chime solo, 'Bells of Ouseley" by Fred Pleasants. He piayed the solo or chimes presented to the band by Col- oneel R. S. McLaughlin. For those fond ot Eric Ball's music the band played his well known Indian Summer suite. 1 A Spanish gypsy dance was of/Walk With God". 5 Highway Speeds : Cut By Council | Easy on the gas pedal, mo- torists. Speed limits on sections of Highway Two between Oshawa and Bowmanville have been rev duced. Last September Dar lington Township council passed a bylaw recommending speed reductions to the Department of Transport, ' Sections of the highway af fected are from the Oshawa Town Line to a point appro: ately 500 yards past this -- mph; from 500 yards past Town Line to 50 yards past Courtice road -- 45 mph; from Courtice road to the 10th Line of Darlington Township -- mph; from the 10th Line Dar- lington to Maple Grove -- 45 mph; from Maple Grove road to Bowmanville -- 50 mph, Branch. 43, Royal Cana- Hall. John Elrick, a dis- dian Legion, will now hang tillery representative a portrait of one of the above, left, presented the Commonwealth's great lead- portrait. of Sir. Winston ers at the Centre St, Legion Churchill to Branch 43 on "WINNIE'S PORTRAIT AT LEGION HALL. his company's behalf. The gift was received by Branch 43 president, Maurice Proc- tor, centre, who is shown i with Rev. A. Woolcock, padre of the local RCL branch, --Oshawa Times Photo,