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i With Premier Ferguson maintaining that there was practically unanimity throughout the Province on the pro-- posal that municipalities contribute 20 per cent. of the old--age pensions costs, and with at least ten Opposition mem-- bers speaking on behalf of their con-- stituents in protest against the 20 per cent. proposal, the CGovernment's Old Age Pensions Bill was "carried" in the committee stage last evening. And R. F. Miller (Liberal, Haldi-- mand) declared bluntly that Mr. Fer-- guson had tried to "befog" the members of the House in his references to the pension system in Great Britain. "Eng-- land," said Mr. Miller, "pays the whole shot. Where did the I'x'e|1"l look for information? To Central rope, to ' Bulgaria, to Czechoslovakia, to Russia, 'perhaps, but not to Britain." i When Mr. Miller went on to describe 1| While the Prime Minister told the | House that, according to letters he had | received and according to "a check--up" on the press, public opinion was "almost unanimous" in favor of his legislation, the Opposition members were equally emphatic in their protests against the 20 per cent. ratio, and claimed that if there was to be any contribution from the municipalities it should be no more than 10 per cent. Termed Plutocratic Mcasure. When the committee came to the ~section requiring a 20 per cent. con-- tribution from the municipalities, John. 'G. Lethbridge, Progressive Leader, led . off in the argument of protest by stat-- \ing that there was "a strong feeling" 'against such a ratio of contributions. Mr. Ferguson stated that he had "a great many letters," and that he had "checked up in the press" and found an "almost unanimous'" opinion in favor of the 20 per cent. He said that the counties realized that there should be "a reasonable financial responsibility" on the local communities, and that he was "pleasantly surprised at the com-- parative unanimity." COMMITTEE ST A G E Premier Claims Practical Unanimity in Province Regarding Contribution Toward Measure, W hile Opposition M e m b e r s Protest 20 Per _ Cent. Ratio When the protests against the con-- tributions by the municipalities had continued for three--quarters of an hour, with interjections ever and anon by the Premier in favor of the measure, the Chairman called the number of the contentious section. No one ross to continue the protests, and the Chair-- man questioned, "Carried?" Apparently this was the majority opinion, for it went through without a division. Other sections occasioned no disputlc ! and the bill was reported. "Only in the Star," Premier Fergu-- son injected. Mr. Lethbridge thought that the contribution should be reduced at least to 10 per cent. '"'Today," said he, "I have just re-- ceived seven letters, and they all say that, after thought, this is a reasonably fair proposal." . Lethbridge Objects. BILL 1S REPORTED WITHOUT DIVISION Aurelien Belanger (Liberal, Russell) told the Government that the bill was not a democratic measure, but a pluto-- cratic one, whereby the poor counties get poorer and the rich counties richer. When Mr. Miller went on to describe the pension arrangements in Great Britain, Mr. Ferguson objected, declar-- ing that the Liberal member was wrong. Mr. Miller just as strongly de-- clared himself to be right, and finally Hon. Joseph E. Thompson, Chairman of the committec, had to call the two to order. SEES ADVANCEMENT OF PENSIONS SCHEME we s dar-- t P0%4-- AZAF. 0 "There is one side of this that should not be overlooked," said the Premier. '"'The local community owes something to the residence who helped build it up." All the Ontario statutes pointed to this vbrinciple, said he, and again declared: *'I haven't heard any strenuous objec-- tions, except in a few isolated cases." D. J. Taylor (Progressive, North Grey) declared that a requirement of 10 per cent. was enough to "create the inter-- est" that the Premier spoke of when he referred to a reasonable financial responsibility. He showed the House a telegram he had just received from the City Clerk and Council of Owen Sound, unanimously opposing the 20 per cent. contribution. "Few TIsolated Cases." "If," said Mr. Belanger, "the Mothers' Allowances Act puts a larger burden on the poor county and then this act adds to the burden, the poor counties will get poorer and the rich counties will get richer." "I don't think that the municipali-- ties concerned are as unanimously in favor of this as the Premier would have us think," said William E. N. Sinclair, Liberal Leader. He said that the con-- tribution would mean an increase of about. one--half a mill on the dsllar in Oshawa, and that it was "a serious municipal burden which should not be placed on the municipality," '"'This is what is most cbnoxious," said Aurelien Belanger (Liberal, Rus-- sell). "The poorer the county the more it has to pay, and the poorer it gets." "Surely." said Mr. Sinclair, "Ontario is big enough and generous enough to deal from the public Treasury on old-- age pensions. I am still firmly con-- vince1 that it should go fifty--fifty with the Dominion." Foresees Pluteocracy. E. Blake Miller (Liberal, East Elgin) declared: "It doesn't make much dif-- ference how the amount of money is arrived at; the citizens have to pay it anyhow. If the Province paid the 50 per cent. it would equalize the whole burden thrcughout the citizens of On-- tario." But since it paid only part, said he, that increased the burden on the municipalities which paid 20 per cent..' x'md. also part of the 30 per cent. "The same vrincivle apuliee uvnder the Mothers' Allowances Act," said Mr. Ferguson. Poorer and Richer. "Let the Province pay it all," said FEdmond Proulx (Liberal, Prescott). "And as far as the Mothers' Allowances Act is concerned, I don't think it was passed by this Government. "And would be in the pigconhole yet if you'd been in power," Hon. Harry Nixon (Progressive, Brant County) re-- torted, while cther members pointed out that it was a U.F.O. measure. Mr. Belanger asked the Premier to consider the situation of the poor suburb to a city. an area inhabited by people who had been driven out of the city because of high rents. They, said "What paper?" Mr. Ferguson in-- quired. "Oh, & Toronto paper," said Mr. Sandy. y oeay o "What paper?" Mr. Ferguson pressed his question. "Oh yes. it was :@ll resdy in the pigeonhole," Hon. Dr. Godfrey inter-- jected. F. G. Sandy (Progressive, South Victoria) thought that there was too much difference between a 20 per cent. ccntribution in municipalities in Old Ontario and nothing in the unorganized districts of New Ontario. He believed that the 20 per cent. should be re-- duced at least to 10 per cent. He want-- ed to remind the Premier that Mayor Moore of Lindsay had in an interview with a newspaper expressed opposition to the 20 per cent. proposal. ® he, would be exactly the people wha would be first to apply for aid for their own people, and yet the Govern-- ment was going to add to their burden of taxation. "This," he declared, "is not fair in a democracy like ours, where the burden for old people should be spread throughout the Province. If we go on like this we will no longer have a democracy, but a plutocracy that considers the rich man and lets the poor get poorer all the time." s | _ Mr. Miller said that he thought the | | Premier was "trying to befog" the mem=-- | bers in his references to the system of !old-age pensions in England. The Lib-- [ eral member said that the Old Age Pen-- -* sions Act adopted in England in 1308 | and whereby the Government pays the | | full amount, still stands; and that the: | Old Age Insurance Act was a different measure. which, according to its own ' regulations. made the age of pension applicants 65 years. "What the Premier said," Mr. Miller declared bluntly, "is 4 not correct." \ _"Arse you in favor of an insurance act?" Attorney--General Price inquired. "Yes," said Mr. Miller. W. J. Bragg (Liberal, Durham) stated that he had a number of letters from throughout his district protesting any contribution by the municipalities. _ Following all this protest the section 'requiring the 20 per cent. contribution kwa.s "carried." f , Case of Indian KResorve. / _ Hon. Harry Nixon wanted to @raw ! the attention of the Government to the situation in Brant County. and to the fact thai this small county held a large Indian reserve in which there were some 1 4,300 persons. Already, said he, the | county had "to fcot the bill" for ex-- penses in connection with the reserve. and he urged the Government at least to classify the resorve in the provision for unorganized territory, so that the * county would not have to cortribute to the aid for pensioners on the reserve. "Oh, one of the outstanding Toronto papers," Mr. Sandy answered. Mayor Says He Agrees. "The Star, eh?" said Mr. Ferguson. "Well, I can tell the honorable member that I have on my désk a letter from Mayor Moore, who says that he agrees with the scheme." i "One of your organizers must have called on him lately," said Mr. Sandy. E. Blake Miller again protested the 20 per cent. ratio. "If this doesn't work out equitably we have another session to fix it," Mr#. Ferguson observed. _ _ _ __C. A. Robsrtson (Liberal, North Hur-- on) declared himself as opposed to any contribution at all by the municipalities, "Let this be done in a big way," said George Smyth (Liberal, Dundas), urg-- ing the Government to pay the 50 per cent. He also suggested that the Gov-- ernment pay more than 50 per cent. toward the Mothers' Allowances Act. "The municipalities are overburdened with taxation," said he. "This may be the last straw that breaks the camel's back." IHHint of Retroactive Phase. a Conservative one at that, that the Government intended making the Old Age Pensions Act retroactive. R. F. Milier (Liberal, Haldimand) said that he saw in a newspaper, and "Pardon me. but my honorable friend is wrong," said Mr. Ferguson. "No, I'm not," Mr. Miller retorted. "Yes, you are," Mr. Ferguson insisted. "Order, order," said Chairman Thompson. But Mr. Sinclair thought that the Government "wanted to put off as far as possible" any making of contribu-- tions. R. F. Miller declared that in fram-- ing this Pensions Act the Premier did not look to Great Britain. "But he looked," said Mr. Miller, "to Central Europe, to Bulgaria, to Czeochoslovakia, perhaps to Russia, to get information. But not to Britain. England pays the whole shot." { Mr. Ferguson noted that Indians coming under the Federal Indian Act are not in the pensions category. Mr. Nixon pointed out that there were peo-- ple on the reserve who were not In-- dians, and did not come under the Indian Act. He suggested that the Ontario Government negotiate with Ot-- tawa and get some adjustment of the situation. He held that Ottawa would listen to the Ontario authoritie when they wouldn't listen _to'cqupty omc}als. Mr. Ferguson stated that the pensions legislation had been approved by Ot-- tawa, and that the situation on the reserve had probably been considered. However, said he, if the county ever had problems in connection with the reserve, he would be glad to take them up with Ottawa. Doubts of Mr. Sinclair. Mr. Sinclair questioned the motive behind that clause of the bill which would permit the Ontario Government to wash its hands of the pensions ar-- rangement if, at any time, the Fed-- i+